Lidstrom

Now it seems to be gone.

Does it tell you if you are added to the waitlist?

I must have lost all possible waiting list spots while it was "checking on the order" initially. Lost a lot of time to the Amazon spinning-wheel-of-no-deals.

Wouldn't even let me on the waiting list for some reason.

I am dumbfounded that someone had to be killed before they got sensible about this.

I was very unimpressed. That is good for me, though. One less inspiration to spend money. I am a value shopper, and I will wait for my price. I bought one of those eMachines packages in 2006, I think. It had a Celeron D processor, which ran awfully w/ either 32-bit XP Home or Vista Basic. I put XP Pro 64-bit on it and it runs a whole lot better. It also ran very well with amd64 Linux installs.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/apwire/cf56edc7fc10b5198c3f6f8de965091a.htm That's a link to a list of store closings. Looks like everything in Georgia is going away. Liquidation sales start Wednesday 11/5.

Valid point. No disputing they are trying to make an extra buck or two in that situation, though? No, but anybody who is smart with their money doesn't just blow it all paying retail or worse (regardless of how much money they have). I was never intending to play up the consumer lifestyle in this country. What is it you are buying then? Just selling the free vouchers for whatever you can get? Maybe they are greedy. However, I find it difficult to believe that anyone can really read what I have written here and tell me that I am greedy. I am learning what the concept of "agree to disagree" is all about now.

I don't think that is a huge problem. Depending on how much you're paying them, it may not make financial sense. I don't have a problem with a 1-for-1 thing, as far as going in/out of the line regardless of whether somebody is being paid or not. If you're paying them to hold your spot all night long and they are getting vouchers as well, then the gray area is beginning to get darker for me. However, as long as they are letting everybody know that you will be joining them later then it's not deceptive to those who are trying to keep up with the line. The real problem, to me, is when 1 person is holding spots for 5 or 6 people who roll up just in time for vouchers. It is pretty clear that I have a different world view than some of you. When I am in a line, I see a bunch of people that are in the same boat together that hopefully are trying to accomplish similar goals. I don't believe that I need to be inserting myself as a barrier to what somebody wants to buy. I will get vouchers for the items I intend to buy and give others the opportunity to buy what they waited for. Far from being selfish as some in here try to describe me, it seems selfless and generous. It seems more selfish for someone to seize their money making opportunity without a thought or concern for anybody else there. The "me first" attitude that has led to many of the challenges our society will eventually have to address in a meaningful way. This 'dog eat dog' way of life is going to continue to cause more problems than it solves.

Maybe for you. I happen to think that determining your ethics by whether something is legal or not means you don't have any ethics at all, or at least the lowest standard available. Do what makes you happy. Keep in mind that I don't recall saying any of this should be illegal. I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying I think it reflects poorly on those that do it and is below my ethical standards. If it seems like a great thing to do to you, then go do it. You obviously don't need or want my approval. Rotating 1 person out of a group all night long seems fine. 1 person holding a spot all night for a group of people is something I would find objectionable. It also clearly goes against the 'working hard' argument presented elsewhere in the thread.

I know that. My point is that it would seem to refute the concept that all the sellers are playing by the rules. This is $600 or less for the entire year, right? Not all transactions of $600 or less. That wasn't the case where I was. There wasn't anybody around me that was talking about turning anything into cash. They were either buying items as gifts or addressing needs. May have helped that I went to a Best Buy in a college town where there were primarily students in line hoping to get discounted computers for use with school and parents that don't make a lot of money that saw a chance to get something special at a great price. We weren't a bunch of people trying to figure out how to make money out of it. Any business can have any ethics it wants to have. Just because many choose to compromise them, or not have any at all, doesn't make it impossible. I understand how hard it is for public companies to care about anything beyond the dollar bill because of the greedy way that Wall Street works, though. Just because greed drives the stock market does not mean that is the way things should be. You can be a capitalist without trying to make a buck in every situation in your life. It's the idea that you've got to make money on everything that had a hospital trying to convince my mom to pull the plug on my stepfather 6 months ago, and now he is at home trying to get his life back together. They determined his care was not cost-effective and decided he should be dead. When every action in the world is determined by how much money you can make on it, you're going to get a lot of unintended consequences. I know I am comparing apples to oranges here, but it always starts small with something relatively innocuous. Then one day it becomes an Enron type situation where any concept of ethical standards are tossed aside in favor of making more money. I don't know that I ever suggested any of it was theft or that I have been denied anything. Something does not become the 'right thing to do' with me just because it is hard to do. I'm not sure I would ever buy into that logic. I don't really care if you think my ethical standards are selfish, although I cannot see how you ever arrived at such a position. I never once said that I should get something instead of them. You're just one more person who can't think outside of their little box. Just because I find something to be unethical or wrong does not mean I have ever been wronged by it or am seeking to benefit at their loss in some way.

Is anything that people are willing to pay for ok then, in your opinion? Does the fact that somebody is willing to pay for it make it a good thing to do without any other consideration?

I never said eBay business was not valid. I said selling of vouchers is not a valid business, IMO. I also said there are many eBay sellers that are essentially black marketers. I'm not the only one that thinks so. The IRS does, as well. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070225-8919.html

I make that statement from personal experience and based on reports in the media. I'll check on this. It is not my understanding that a 1099 must be issued for you to report the income. It just means it is easier for you to cheat without it. In most jurisdictions, once you begin selling products or services, you are considered to be a sole proprietor. I'm not aware of the exception from income taxes as long as everything you sell costs less than $600. I am not saying they cannot make an income at all. I am saying that I don't find it to be a valid business. How does that work? Are you saying we should apply that to everything in the world? I'm not saying people can't do it. I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm not going to pretend that I think selling free vouchers is an ethical thing to do, but I wouldn't call in the government to do something about it either.

It doesn't matter what you think of the tax system in this nation. If somebody is going to put their actions under the "business" umbrella, they should act like a business. That, to me, means following all the rules that a real business would be subjected to. I don't agree with the current tax laws, but that doesn't mean I can say the things I do are "just business" while breaking the law. If Best Buy decided to just not properly account for the income from the items they sold, they could end up losing everything. It's not something a legitimate business finds to be optional. You can only really get away with claiming the profit on an item if you keep a receipt for the original expense of the item. If you aren't keeping that for a proper cost-basis, it won't make it through an IRS audit and they will consider the proceeds to be entirely reportable income. It has nothing to do with garage sales. I am specifically referring to people that claim they are engaging in business. Garage sales are not businesses, generally speaking. Do you honestly think any significant number of people are getting vouchers for BF items and quickly selling them at a garage sale? How many are buying BF items with the intention of selling them in a garage sale? Very few, if any. I question the veracity of the claim that most eBay members report their income. I personally know 5 people who routinely sell items via eBay and none of them report a penny of that income. They are black market all the way.

One is purchasing to use an item. The other is purchasing as a 'business' opportunity. If I thought everybody who treated it as a 'business' opportunity actually handled the accounting like a business would, I might not have as much of a problem with it. Because most of these people are trying to "make their own way" in the black market. A real business would claim the income. Are they? I wouldn't do either of those, so it may be hard for me to say what the differences are. If I knew that somebody would have been next to get that ticket and it was something they might not otherwise be able to afford and was hoping to get it for their children (for example), I would not be so proud and greedy that I'd turn to them and say, "Early bird gets the worm!" and sell it to somebody else. Ultimately, we are all in this world together and some concern for others is not going to prevent you from living your life.

In this country, not claiming the income from selling that item is illegal and makes it a black market enterprise, though. I'm sure you would claim that income, right?

Not true. I've never waited in a line and not been able to get what I came for, but I still think some of this other stuff is wrong. It is a misconception that opposition to something is entirely because you got the short end of the stick. Sometimes it is because you have a different set of values.

It's a shame that it has to be that way. It comes with this 'consumer economy' we have, I suppose. This 'competition' thing brings out the worst characteristics in many people.

Some people see everything in life as competition and are determined to "win." I doubt anything we say here is going to change their minds. The one thing I do wonder is who sets the price for these things. Are those of you selling the tickets merely responding to an offer for money, or are you deciding the price? Not that I feel either is truly legitimate, but I am a little curious.

At least Best Buy has to report their income, unlike many of these fly-by-night black marketers on eBay will do. Regardless of what people may think of the tax laws, claiming 'capitalism' and "smart business" without claiming the income is anything but a real business. It's a gray market enterprise at best and black market at worst. A real business that operated like this would eventually be shutdown by the IRS.

I waited for 9-10 hours last year and I could have had a ticket for just about every doorbuster. I got one ticket for the one doorbuster item I intended to buy. I walk the walk and it has nothing to do with 'deserving' anything or not being willing to put in the time. Tell yourself whatever you have to in order to justify your position, but don't project onto others the things that you do not know for certain. Not everybody with ethical standards higher than yours is some whiner with a sense of entitlement. Some of them just live a life not governed by the dollar bill and find behavior driven solely by acquisition of money to be a demonstration of greed. It seems clear that no view can be changed in this thread, and I'm not sure that would even be desirable. People have to want to live differently in order to do so and not just read comments from somebody who does.

Apple uses price controls, for whatever reason. As long as Apple gets the same cut, why not let a store sell it at a loss if they want to? Things like this serve only to slow Apple's growth in the market.

I bought one online...

It's not unethical for you, obviously, but to claim that everyone has the same ethical standards as you would be a mistake. Do what makes you happy, but don't expect that everyone else approves of it. Your story about the police doesn't mean much to me. When my wife and I were hit by a drunk driver and I had a full description of the driver, the vehicle, and the license plate number, they never did anything about it. We even had a witness. While this is a different police force, it is clear to me that they aren't a real arbiter of right/wrong. They selectively enforce laws. Besides that, if your ethics are defined by what is legal then you really have no ethical standard at all. Legal/illegal is the lowest standard available.